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Asunto:Re: [dxcolombia] "RE:RE: [dxcolombia] HK3AR operaci ón ilegal"
Fecha:Miercoles, 21 de Enero, 2009  07:46:53 (-0500)
Autor:Jham Salim <hk1nk.dx @.....com>

Buen día, amigo Hernán, no creo que seamos menos los radioaficionados, creo que sencillamente la telefonía y el Internet alejo a los "radionecesitados" esos si que eran muchos, los que aun seguimos en esta cultura lo hacemos por el gusto al QRM, a la experimentación, al morse, al DX o sencillamente disfrutan hablandos con sus amistades, los que estamos estamos por gusto y pasión, y los que se fueron..........    
Hoy en día no tenemos mayores números de nuevos radioaficionados es porque sencillamente las nuevas generaciones NO CONOCEN nada de esto, hay que llegar a los colegios, las universidades e instituciones juveniles ( Como sé que lo hace el amigo Roberto) a buscar nuevos clientes, y creame no es una labor nada fácil.
Algo en lo que si estoy de acuerdo con usted es que si le han dado mucha "tiza" a algunos asuntos (y no hablo solo de este ultimo en particular), pero tanto RUIDO no creo que le haga bien a las "ganas" de los nuevos pupilos.

Cordialmente,


Jham Salim Gechem
HK1NK 

El 21 de enero de 2009 0:34, hernan varona <hvs5kvz@latinmail.com> escribió:
Esbueno poner atención al tema pero no darle tanta tiza, cuando la radioafición en colombia pasa por la mayor crisis existencialista, dede la promulgación de la Ley 94 de 1993, y sus decretos regamentarios, que históricamente, en lugar de promover el hooby le están dando un entrieero de tercera; en 1994 eramos al rrededor de 18.000, licencias, que por los costos, los celos de instituciones y pleeas de colegas, como la que Ud asumen,(esbueno reportar al ministerio pero no darle tanta polémica al asunto) destruye y no construye, pues ahora solo quedamos unos 1650 aproximadamente; dediquémonos a construir presentando propuestas asertivas que promuevan la unión, la investigación, la promosión, y la rebaja de los costos de licencias, operación de asociaciones, repetidoras e importación de equipos, para que la telefonía celular no siga cusando daños en la actividad de las nuevas generaciones

att
Hernán Varona Silva
HK5 KVZ
Lic 2964 Cat Avanzada
---Mensaje original---
 
Saludos a todos los colegas de DXCOLOMBIA.
Juan Camilo, ni más ni menos la razón de volver a retomar este caso fue la de mostrar que la gran mayoría de radioaficionados del mundo que opinaron en QRZ.COM, estuvieron de acuerdo en que esa operación fue ilegal, dandote un espaldarazo por lo que en su momento fuiste capaz de denunciar.
Y mi opinión en este caso es que las leyes y decretos que rigen la radioafición en Colombia fueron violadas por estos señores, que tenían la obligación de cumplir en todo con estas disposiciones. La ignorancia de las leyes no es excusa para el delito Y es que fue un delito el haber usufructuado el espectro radioeléctico en Colombia, el haber usado indicativos no asignados, porque ni siquiera fueron solicitados y ademas están adjudicados a una persona natural en Colombia, el haber usado equipos de telecomunicaciones sin la autorización correspondiente, etc etc. En otra época cuando existía el estatuto antiterrorismo,  el echo de usar, portar o poseer un equipo de comunicaciones sin licencia, era considerado algo similar al porte ilegal de armas y castigado dúramente.
Ante las leyes de nuestra República deben responder estos señores. Los organizadores de concursos para radioaficionados deben tomar las medidad correspondientes para evitar que su credibilidad se vea deteriorada y más aún que se conviertan en cómplices de esas actuaciones.
Para terminar este comentario debo decir que no quiero que estos casos pasen al olvido para evitar que esto vuelva a ocurrir en nuestro país y en la radioafición mundial.
Cordialmente


B O B   H K 1 A A





From: hk3cq@hotmail.com
To: dxcolombia@elistas.net
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:26:16 0000
Subject: RE: [dxcolombia] HK3AR operación ilegal

Roberto, HK1AA:
El indicativo que fue suplantado ilegalmente es el de Wolfgang Torres, HK3RA, no HK3AR. Ya que usted se tomó la molestia de reproducir esa larga polémica en QRZ.COM, que está llena de desinformación, mentiras e insultos, especialmente por parte de dos radioaficionados (4L5A y LU5DX) que sin conocer la realidad de las cosas se pusieron a especular para defender y justificar una operación abusiva e ilegal, que fue denunciada por un buen grupo de radioaficionados colombianos, sería bueno conocer cuál es su opinión al respecto.
Juan Camilo
HK3CQ




From: hk1aa@hotmail.com
To: dxcolombia@elistas.net
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 23:20:55 0000
Subject: [dxcolombia] HK3AR operación ilegal



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  #1  
Old 01-08-2009, 06:27 PM
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Posts: 20
Default Blackmail on CQ WW Contest Comittee

BLACKMAIL ON CQ WW CONTEST COMITTEE

Some hams are labling the operation of HK3RA by Russian amateur Dimirti Kryukov RA3CO
as a hijacking, or the unauthorized use of a callsign not assigned to the operator. In his defense, Dimitri
claims that he was lent the callsign by its actual owner, Wolfgang Torres, who is reportedly not
a contester. Regardless, Colombian law does not permit amateurs to lend their callsign to another person.

A group of Colombian hams, led by Juan Camilo Rodriguez, HK3CQ, have filed a formal complaint
to CQ WW CC .

Further complicating the matter are the actions of another Colombian station, HK1AR, a.k.a. Tony
Rogozinski (W4OI), who permitted Kryukov and others to rent his QTH and operate his station in
the 2007 CQ WW Contest. Also named in the complaint is Girts Budis, YL2KL as an HK1AR callsign "user".


The bottom line is that a group of Colombian operators are asking that the prohibition against
"callsign lending" be strictly enforced in their country and that RA3CO and YL2KL be prohibited from
conducting further operations in Colombia and to be DQed .

For more details see these links:

http://contesting.at-communication.c...l_k3est_hk3ra/
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  #2  
Old 01-08-2009, 11:36 PM
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Default hijack

Hijacking?? It's just the Russian way of doing things.
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  #3  
Old 01-08-2009, 11:46 PM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4L5A View Post
Further complicating the matter are the actions of another Colombian station, HK1AR, a.k.a. Tony Rogozinski (W4OI), who permitted Kryukov and others to rent his QTH and operate his station in
the 2007 CQ WW Contest.
Someone rented another ham's station? I can think of a few stations that are "rented" each CQ contest. This is a problem why??
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  #4  
Old 01-09-2009, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W4DFW View Post
Someone rented another ham's station? I can think of a few stations that are "rented" each CQ contest. This is a problem why??
Because Colombian law as cited in Chapter VII, Article 76, Section 9 of the rules that regulate amateur radio activities in that country, states "The use of one's callsign by any other person is prohibited". Contest rules also state that all operations be conducted in compliance with rules and laws.

When operating in Colombia or other countries with similar rules, you can rent the equipment, but it's up to the operator to have a valid license and in Colombia using someone else's license isn't allowed.

73,
Walt, W5ALT
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  #5  
Old 01-09-2009, 12:45 AM
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Default wow

Big deal Sounds like another bunch of 7 year olds crying to mommy.
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  #6  
Old 01-09-2009, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W4DFW View Post
Someone rented another ham's station? I can think of a few stations that are "rented" each CQ contest. This is a problem why??
Because the station owner's callsign was used during the contest by the renter. The "renter" didn't have a valid callsign.
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  #7  
Old 01-09-2009, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w5alt View Post
Because Colombian law as cited in Chapter VII, Article 76, Section 9 of the rules that regulate amateur radio activities in that country, states.....
You have waaaaaay too much time on your hands. Citing "Columbian" amateur laws?

Now, I've seen everything.
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Old 01-09-2009, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AI6DX View Post
You have waaaaaay too much time on your hands. Citing "Columbian" amateur laws?

Now, I've seen everything.
And the problem with following the laws of a particular country is....what? One could twist your comment to indicate that someone who visits the US can ignore US regulations. I know that is not what you mean....but what makes Colombian law any less "legal" in their country than US law here? Opening THAT door will get you in deep kimchee.....as they were in Colombia, the local law prevails. As the amateur radio community is international, we do well to respect the laws which impact our hobby. How would you feel if someone came to the US and borrowed your call? Not happy, I would feel certain. The fact that it was "lent" is still in violation of their law...and, IIRC, it would also be illegal here unless the callholder was the control op of the site and on site.

Not a lawyer, and don't play one on TV. Just my personal view on the matter.

73 de N4ABA
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  #9  
Old 01-09-2009, 02:42 AM
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Default laws

"The bottom line is that a group of Colombian operators are asking that the prohibition against
"callsign lending" be strictly enforced in their country and that RA3CO and YL2KL be prohibited from
conducting further operations in Colombia "

no different than if someone from outside the US, who did not have valid reciprocal priveleges here, borrowed your station/call and used it for a contest.

Heck, what's a stinkin' license?

Only absolutely necessary to have a valid contest entry.

You don't think checking laws is important? So what if the guy is in EU, and borrows a US call and operates from there and wins.....what laws.....why should anyone complain....ha ha.....

The folks in Columbia have a right to point out their laws require an operator have a valid permission to operate in their country, and must use their own assigned call.

A Russian cannot borrow your call. He can borrow your station - or operate multi-op IF he has a valid permission to operate in the USA. But not otherwise.

Columbian law apparently is different...no multi-op stations using personal call signs.....dunno about club stations if they have them.
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  #10  
Old 01-09-2009, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N9AMI View Post
Big deal Sounds like another bunch of 7 year olds crying to mommy.

Not really. The law is the law.

When in the USA, people are required to follow USA laws.

When in Colombia, people are required to follow Columbia's laws.

It's so simple it is not worth worrying about. If they operated illegally, in particular without a license to operate, they should be disqualified.
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  #11  
Old 01-09-2009, 05:07 AM
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I read through the link above, and I assume they accurately quoted the regulation.

It seems to me that it's probably subject to interpretation. What do they mean "used" by a third person? Here, the callsign was assigned to a Colombian ham for the station in his home, and he allowed the Russian to operate. As someone else pointed out, if the word "used" is interpreted as this group did, this means that any kind of multi-op station is also illegal.

It looks like the contest committee asked the people making the complaint to get an opinion from the Colombian authorities clarifying this, and they failed to do so. It seems to me quite likely that they failed to do so because the Colombian authorities don't see it as a violation.

This doesn't appear to be a case of a guy showing up on Colombian soil and borrowing a callsign for his own personal use, which the term "hijacking" seems to imply.

In other words, it sure sounds like there are two sides to this particular story.
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  #12  
Old 01-09-2009, 05:46 AM
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Default

Nobody is against law but when HK3CQ is quired for 3 years and after that start complain about previouse operations I start think why?
When I see that HK3CQ trying to rent his station with no mention about local law WHY?
When he is travelling in South America and asking for support and find guy in Argentina who is speculating using name of George LU8DQ WHY?
Local hams in HK need to be aware of the law right?
You know when I find that on qrz.com:
PLEASE NO BUREAU. ONLY DIRECT QSL VIA QRZ.COM Since january 2003 postal service in Colombia increased 100%. Most of the QSL's for my Jet Box adress in Miami will be returned from Colombia: Please no USA or Colombian stamps. Due to exchange rate the mailing cost it's about US$3.
You can check your self on HK3CQ profile
Then I think many things becoming much more clearer
If I will come to US and will ask local friend if I can use his call sign and he will say yes then its ok for me and I think also for you if you visit another country
In this sitaution I think HK3CQ is just trying to get more people to rent his station instead of HK1AR station and thats it its dont have any kind of the connection with law only with his personnal interest and LU1DZ is just trying to satisfy his EGO
73 Al 4L5A
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  #13  
Old 01-09-2009, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AI6DX View Post
You have waaaaaay too much time on your hands. Citing "Columbian" amateur laws?

Now, I've seen everything.
Walt currently lives in and operates from Venezuela, and frequently travels to Colombia. Knowing those laws is part of the time on his hands. He knows that information better than anyone else here.
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  #14  
Old 01-09-2009, 03:02 PM
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Default

"There's not too much you can't fix, with $200.00 and a .30-06" -Col. Jeff Cooper

Who's Col. Jeff Cooper?

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  #15  
Old 01-09-2009, 04:55 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WB0MNW View Post
"There's not too much you can't fix, with $200.00 and a .30-06" -Col. Jeff Cooper

Who's Col. Jeff Cooper?

Bren 10 designer, and one of the folks that contributed much to personal defense weapon development and use. He certainly didn't come up with the "Hollywood side shooter" (common in movies...holding a firearm "sideways" instead of upright...dumb!) but developed and taught points that anyone that owns a firearm should know. A decent read is located at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper_(colonel)

73 de N4ABA
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  #16  
Old 01-09-2009, 05:37 PM
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Wink CALL SIGN FOR RENT

Can I post " CALL SIGN FOR RENT?"
- Any station must comply with the rules. IARU has the reciprocal agreement for the convenience of all signatories. We understand that getting a permission to operate outside the U.S, even if there's a reciprocal agreement between two countries is sometimes a pain in the butt. Local authorities in any countries are not always aware about the reciprocal agreement. A local police, mayor, congressman, senator in Colombia, Venezuela, Cuba etc.. are not aware what is all about amateur radio.
When you boarded a plane to your destination outside the U.S, upon your arrival in any country, if anyone seeing you erecting a tower with antennas and radios, you are getting a passers-by attention thinking that you are doing a military operation of some sort, and you will be reported to a local police, and then the problem will start. You will be ask the 5 W's and you will try to explain that you are a ham- local people will say " WHAT is THAT?"

>K6ZRH
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  #17  
Old 01-09-2009, 07:56 PM
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Default Blackmail

I'm still trying to figure out who is being "blackmailed?"
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  #18  
Old 01-09-2009, 08:02 PM
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Default THIS IS NOT NEWS AND DOES NOT BELONG HERE!

From the standpoint of this being a newsworthy item deserving front page attention -- it is NOT! This is opinion by 4L5A and really should be treated as such.

News is "Who, what, when, where and how" as fully corroborated with factual evidence prior to publication. Past that its opinion and until the facts are corroborated. Therefore, as 4L5A has not presented any corroborated this entire matter cannot be construed as anything other than his opinion.

Also, this is a privately sponsored event. As such it is up to the judges and only the judges to decide eligability. 4L5A and anyone else has the right to file a letter of that asks the judges to take note of what he preceives as a violattion of the contest rules and to provide evidence, but thats where it ends.

If and when this matter is resolved by the person or persons judging the event it becomes a fait de complais. Until that happens this is naught but one ham radio operators opinion.

Also, where is there any "blackmail" involved? The legal definitions of the term "blackmail" are:

1. Extortion of money or something else of value from a person by the threat of exposing a criminal act or discreditable information.

2. Something of value extorted in this manner.

3. Tribute formerly paid to freebooters along the Scottish border for protection from pillage.

With all due respect to 4L5A, unless he can conclusively prove that those involved in the operation paid tribute (extortion monies) to the contest sponsor(s) I would strongly suggest that he retract the use of that term. By using it without providing proof that "blackmail" in the legal sense has occurred he places himself and the owners of this website into legal jeopardy should those he accuses and/or the contest sponsors deem his remarks to be libelous, slanderous or in legal "bad light."

Far to much in the way of opinion is being given credibility as being newsworthy. Separating opinion from fact is something that we in the media are quite concerned about. You should be too.

And as my old -- now departed friend George Putnam used to say: 'Thats this reporters opinion. I welcome yours."

Bill Pasternak, WA6ITF
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  #19  
Old 01-09-2009, 09:12 PM
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Default Blackmail CQ WW CC Comittee

Quote:
Originally Posted by W8JI View Post
Not really. The law is the law.

When in the USA, people are required to follow USA laws.

When in Colombia, people are required to follow Columbia's laws.

It's so simple it is not worth worrying about. If they operated illegally, in particular without a license to operate, they should be disqualified.
I Could Not Agree More Disqualify Them!!! Our Rules Should Not Be Broken Without being Punished We Are Self POLICING !!!!!
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  #20  
Old 01-09-2009, 11:48 PM
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Default MZ8A

If I would let another ham rent (or use) my location and station (and call)
I would ask to show me the operators valid U.K. (or reciprocal) licence.
Is there no licence the operation is ILLEGAL !
Where is the problem ?
Hans
MZ8A / SHETLAND
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  #21  
Old 01-10-2009, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AI6DX View Post
You have waaaaaay too much time on your hands. Citing "Columbian" amateur laws?

Now, I've seen everything.
Actually I can see eastern Colombia out of my window right now and I do make sure I operate within the law where ever I do operate.

73,
Walt, W5ALT
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  #22  
Old 01-10-2009, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w0is View Post
I read through the link above, and I assume they accurately quoted the regulation.

It seems to me that it's probably subject to interpretation. What do they mean "used" by a third person? Here, the callsign was assigned to a Colombian ham for the station in his home, and he allowed the Russian to operate. As someone else pointed out, if the word "used" is interpreted as this group did, this means that any kind of multi-op station is also illegal.
The actual text in Spanish reads:
Quote:
9. No permitir el uso de sus indicativos de llamada a cualquier otra persona.
Sounds pretty clear to me, not much room for interpretation and the translation is accurate.

The entire HK rules are here if you read Spanish.

73,
Walt, W5ALT
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  #23  
Old 01-10-2009, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
The entire HK rules are here if you read Spanish.
Thanks for the link. Well, it does look like they regulations are picky about who uses the callsign:

Quote:
13. Identificarse con sus propios indicativos, cuando se estén realizando transmisiones a través de una estación que no sea de su propiedad, seguidos de las palabras "operando desde" y los indicativos asignados a la estación desde la cual efectúa la transmisión.
It sounds like the guy should have been ID'ing with his own callsign and the words "operating from" the host's callsign.

BTW, I think we worked before, if you had a different call several years ago! I was /YV.
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  #24  
Old 01-10-2009, 08:14 AM
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Dear Friends,
That words of HK3CQ I call blackmail:
"The situation is so severe that many have said they will no longer participate in CQWW contests until the committee takes action."

Now look on that advertizement made by his friend
http://ar.groups.yahoo.com/group/wwsatest/message/130
Do you see any word that you need to apply for license to operate from this station? He is talking about keyer etc and now LU1DZ is start compaign against contesters from other countries
Look on that:
Its interesting did Colombian law is allowing that?
Call: 5K5Z
Operator(s): W4OI
Station: HK3CQ

Class: SOSB/20 LP
QTH: Colombia
Operating Time (hrs): 26

Summary:
Band QSOs Zones Countries
------------------------------
160:
80:
40:
20: 1585 36 118
15:
10:
------------------------------
Total: 1585 36 118 Total Score = 750,000
Its CQ WW CW 2004

According to QRZ.COM 5K5Z is belong to:

Gary McClellan,3422 E Altadena Ave,Phoenix, USA

That clearly show how HK3CQ is following own country rules Propably he need to send complain about his self also to CQ WW CC and to Ministry of Communication of Colombia


Its very clear for what HK3CQ is fighting for and I have confirmation of it
73 Al 4L5A
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  #25  
Old 01-10-2009, 08:32 AM
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Default

Im happy Hans MZ8A is say very right things
We are all forgeting about responsibility of station owner
Its very simple if for example I become crazy and will allow terrorist to use my station who will be responsible for that?
Or then HK3CQ will send letter to Usama asking him to DQ him :-)
Its just dirty game and for what HK3CQ is fighting for its clearly showed by his qrz.com profile
LU5DX Martin is send emails to 10 most active HK contesters and 7 of them is comeback to him and say that they are not supporting what HK3CQ and LU1DZ is doing
If HK3CQ is dont know his own rules or not follow it before then he need to organize his self first and then asking to DQ people and specially for past contests also

Hans Thank you very much for multipliers in many contests MM0XAU is unforgetable call but now its even easier to remember MZ8A
Thanks
73 Al 4L5A/D4B
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